[raphael]

i wondered whether anybody had come across this before. This golden pearlscale angel is about 18 months old. I bought it and four others from a lfs when they were about five months old. They seemed very healthy and I thought they were a bargain because they were advertised as plain golden angels - nobody had noticed the small patches of pearlscales beginning to develop on them.
They all have been extremely heathy and have been easy to rear. However, shortly after I bought them, I noticed that two of them had a translucent patch about one centimetre in diameter on one side. I tried various treatments but the patches continued to grow and small pinpricks of black appeared within the area. The black areas were under the scales and seemed to grow along the muscle. I suspect that these were made of clotted blood. I tried various medications over a long period of time. The last one I tried (Waterlife Protozoin) worked on one of the angels (or one of the previous medications could have been effective and just taken a long time to work, I suppose. The scales on this angel grew back and it has gone on to pair off and they have produced a lovely batch of babies for me. The other angel, unfortunately, still has this strange disease which is progressing relentlessly although it seems unaffected by it at the moment. The area 'broke out' a little like excema does in humans last week and looked quite nasty but it has responded to a course of the antibacterial medicine Waterlife myxazin. Any ideas about how to treat this? Thankyou for taking the time to read this, Raphael.

[raphael]

Perhaps I should have pointed out that the area in question is at the base of the tail. Raphael.

[Deb]

Hi Raphael,

It's not that people don't want to answer your question. I'm thinking most just don't know the answer, including myself. I've never seen anything like that so I'm clueless.

Pretty Angelfish.

Sorry I can't be of any help on this one.


Deb

[raphael]

Yes, Deb, This angel is really pretty - nice temperament too. I didn't think for a moment that people didn't want to help - I guess that it is a pretty unusual condition. I just wondered whether it could be to do with the oddly shaped scales. Could it be possible that they do not protect the insides of the angel as well as noormal scales? These scales are a mutation of the normal phenotype. With best wishes, Raphael.

[Carol]

I am sorry but each time I look at the pictures I don't see much but a pearlscale pattern. That is something that is highly desired by some.

My eyes are not the greatest and if you had a more detailed picture maybe we could pick something up other then what looks like the pearl pattern. I see the black dots but not well enough to hazzard a guess at what it could be

[raphael]

The trouble seems to be underneath the scales now although it started as a translucent patch on the surface. I can get the surface area to heal over and the pearlscales to grow back but the black colour and swelling is still visible underneath. I will try to get some better photos tomorrow, Carol. It's my bedtime now but I will be back tomorrow. Thanks for your interest and with best wishes, Raphael.

[avangels]

i think you might be right raphael it looks to me from the pictures that something has got in under the scales in that area. until you can get that sorted it's going to keep coming back even if the outside heals over. it might need some antibiotics injecting into the area so the treatment gets where it needs to be.

Av

[Carol]

I am guessing you are oversea's with the medications you have listed using and if you feel it might be a parasite under there you might try kusari fluebendazole. Plymouth discus has it and I use it at a doubledose safely. It is 5% and generally 10% is a more thourough dose. England is tough on fish medications so it is great that this was able to be approved at all.

[raphael]

Thanks for your comments and advice. You are right, Carol, I live in the UK - I will track down the medicine you suggested asap. I have managed to get better pics of the area - it looks horrific close up! Thanks for your advice and interest - I will keep you posted. Best wishes, Raphael.

[grummie2]

From the close-ups I really can't see a problem other than dark pigmentation showing through opaque scales. I'd be very reluctant to to stress this fish out with meds on the basis of these pics. There is no soreness and this fish appears perfect in all other areas, it looks 'different' but my guess is that it's not dangerous.

[Carol]

Yes it looks like black pigment to me, but since you are there and are sure it is not and it is swollen, I would try a couple things.

Hp/hydrogen perioxide is a good catch all for external things. If the hp can reach that spot it may help. I don't know if this is something embedded into the flesh like pigment and it can be reached.

Are you positive the black is actually not pigment?? And the sore and swelling is different from this black?? Just trying to make sure as it really looks like pigment in the photo's regardless of what is happening otherwise.

Sorry to keep asking about that but .......

[raphael]

When I bought the angels they were pure gold - no black pigmentation to be seen. It was only after I had stopped medicating the fish ( I kept them together so all had identical tretments) that I noticed the black areas. These areas were only present on the two affected fish and were confined to the original opaque patches. On one fish the affected area went back to normal after the medications and the scales grew back as good as new. There is no black on this fish - it is pure gold just like the three unaffected fish. The remaining fish continued to have this strange area which has been growing very slowly over time. I left it untreated because it was in robust health and, as grummie 2 suggested, why treat a perfectly ok fish? However, the secondary infection was a wakeup call that all was not well. The whole area of the tail swelled and the area became red - I wish that I had taken a pic at this point. This, I think would have shown that the problem is deep in the muscle of the fish. It has responded well to an antibacterial but the underlying trouble is still there I am sure. My worry now is that the parasite, (if that is what it is) will enter another stage and break out of its host and infect my show tank.
Just one more question - this is the first time I have kept light coloured angels - is it usual for them to become pigmented as they get older?

[Carol]

to me yes it would be unusual for them to get pigmented as adults. But you have to wonder if once it was ill if that did not develope like scarring when the scales were missing.

It does look so healthy now. And if there is no swelling now I think I would leave it alone. If you do have current swelling, I would move it to a quaranteen tank and try to treat it. If the product you used worked on it before it may be able to finish the job. And the kusari is a good thing to have I would get it to have. I don't know if it can reach the black stuff now that the scales have grown over it.

[raphael]

I think that you may have got something there, Carol. Yes, it could be scarring, couldn't it? I got onto the Plymouth Discus website and they are out of stock for the small sizes of Anti-parasite treatment so I shall watch and wait as the antibacterial has cleared up the swelling. I will keep everyone posted on the angel's progress and thankyou all for your interest. With best wishes, Raphael.

[Carol]

if it ever becomes open that would be the time to get a very good look at what is going on with a magnifying glass. And if you find it is some kind of parasite to treat it while medication can get to it. Then treat with the antibiotic if needed. It is amazing the things these guys can get or do that can make us crazy.

[raphael]

I had a magnifying glass up to it last time it looked nasty. I couldn't see anything moving but I didn't know what I was looking for. But yes I take your point any antiparasite medicine is bound to be more effective on an open wound. With best wishes, Raphael.

[raphael]

Just to let you know, Carol, that I have been on the Plymouth Discus site and have ordered some wormer from them. I shall keep this on standby just in case as you suggested. With best wishes, raphael.

[raphael]

I thought that you all might like an update on what has been going on with my fish. I bought some of the Kusuri wormer plus from Plymouth Discus as you suggested, Carole and as I had never carried out a routine worming on my whole tank setup - I treated all the tanks. The results were amazing! Most of the fish were noticibly fitter - more lively and with a much greater appetite. However, three of my pearlscales including the one with the strange patch looked unwell - they were feeding but not as readily - they just looked as though something was bothering them. About 3 days after the treatment one of these fish swelled up and died in spite of my best efforts to save him. I wondered if the treatment for worms had killed what ever it was inside him and he was unable to pass them?
Another of the three gave up shortly afterwards with no visible signs of disease - it just seemed to give up on life. The third has limped along until this week refusing to eat anything other than white worm which was fine until my culture crashed. He had been loosing condition rapidly this week and I dipped him in the clove oil yesterday. At last I had the opportunity to look at his strange patch. The area was quite ulcerated - very black and grainy. Under a high power microscope there were many black round objects ranging in size from four times to a fifth the size of a yeast cell. I was lucky enough to observe one of these bursting open. Many tiny black spheres were released and these were able to move independently. I have scoured the web trying to find out what they are called and have come up with a few possibilities. A turbellarian worm seems to be a possible candidate but they usuallly infect salt water fish. A flagellated protozoan seems likely but I can't find one that is black. I shall be dosing my tanks again with the Kusuri medicine but I have a feeling that this parasite needs a secondary host to complete its life cycle - otherwise I should be seeing a degree of infection in the other fish. Hope that you find this of interest and with very best wishes, Raphael.

[Carol]

I am sorry to hear of your losses. Yes when a fish is heavily infected with internal parasites they can get bound up. I generally start with the dewormer in the food for a couple doses then go to the water treatment.

And honestly I have not found a way to save them when they bloat up like that. Some will eventually pass them and some just can't.

On the in the muscle parasite, I have read that when a fish gets very heavily infested the parasites can work their way through the intestines and into the muscles and other organs.

I am glad the product worked for the rest of your angels.

[raphael]

Thankyou for your kind words, Carol. I am hopeful that I have got over the worst of it and can look forward to enjoying my angels without the worry. Also, I do have a tankful of baby pearlscales as consolation. Thanks so much for your interest and advice and thanks also to the members of the forum who have been following this thread. With best wishes, Raphael.